Curse

lizards · Mar 14, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I won't deny that AV is still a problem for the Horde, however. Hopefully the reduction of the health to the two main Ally baddies will help things a bit. At least I can leave with the comfort that Alliance aren't, well, too good.

That's funny, on my server Horde wins AV EVERY SINGLE TIME. I could do it like 100 times in a row and maybe win once... and I'm not exaggerating.

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

But how long has it taken to gear up your toon in WoW to be PvP competitive? And how long does it take me to PvP a decent Skill bar in GW? Four maybe five hours? This is what I'm getting at.

Many factors decide how quick you get faction, just like the many factors that decide how quickly you get honor/arena points. The chiefest among them being skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

If you want to PvP in WoW, you have no choice but to grind/play near 3000 hours to be competitive, near the top of the food chain.

No you don't. I went straight to S3 gear from S1 in just a couple of months, and not through constant game time (back in the day S1 could be gotten in a couple of weeks, and these days it's easier now that it's purchasable through honor.) It'd be slower, and I wouldn't have my rated gear, if I was in a bad team though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Except for some nice map design WoW PvP has nothing to offer the Competitive PvPer, unless they can somehow check out of reality and spend a very unhealthy amount of time farming for gear.

There is no more honor and rank grind for PvP items. This does not apply to the WoW of today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Titles are required Grinds?? Fancy Armor is Required Grind?? You of all people, claiming that you enjoy both games, should know the obvious difference.

Good skills, max runes, and max item stats are required "grinds." I'm sorry I didn't emphasize.

Notice that I keep quoting the word "grind" due to its subjectivity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Seems the most recent changes now favor Horde. You know, the new AV that is an obvious rip from GW?

Guild Wars: Factions - Released in 2006.

Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch - Implemented June 7th 2005.

Only things that have changed have been balancing issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizards

That's funny, on my server Horde wins AV EVERY SINGLE TIME. I could do it like 100 times in a row and maybe win once... and I'm not exaggerating.

Both of my battlegroups are 90% Alliance. Depends on the servers more than anything.

Cacheelma · Mar 14, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I would love for all you WoW fans to paste your time waisted--in days--not hours as a qualifier for your common sense. Paste it as your signature. Paste it to your forehead when you go out in public. Tell your parents, your next prospective employer. Tell us! I'd bet you 10 to 1 GW wins again for not Sucking the life out of it's players, with cheap grinds and tricks that make you feel special for having wasted your life via pixels. . . . .

Shouldn't I do that with Guild Wars time instead?

Who are you to judge which period of time of my life is wasted? I played WoW for 5 months and I enjoyed every single second of it (otherwise I wouldn't have played). I don't regret any of it even now. For GW, I regret that I've bought the game THE MOMENT GWEN and GW2 were spilled (by the Inquirer).

But that's JUST ME. Other people might've played Guild Wars for 5,000 hours and enjoyed every single second of it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody, and I said NOBODY, has any right to judge how people spend their time.

Balan Makki · Mar 14, 2008, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Many factors decide how quick you get faction, just like the many factors that decide how quickly you get honor/arena points. The chiefest among them being skill.

Teamwork is far more important than skill, something that can be considered a skill, but as far as WoW is concerned, the majority of players gain their PvP power through grinding honor/arena points for gear. Best skill available really, the only skill necessary in WoW teamwork, is a good healer.

Quote:

No you don't. I went straight to S3 gear from S1 in just a couple of months, and not through constant game time (back in the day S1 could be gotten in a couple of weeks, and these days it's easier now that it's purchasable through honor.) It'd be slower, and I wouldn't have my rated gear, if I was in a bad team though.

Only a couple of months? How many days/hours spent farming that honor would you guess? Have I mention PvP packs yet? . . .

Quote:

Good skills, max runes, and max item stats are required "grinds." I'm sorry I didn't emphasize.

Oh, you also forgot to emphasize that for a few dollars, you have Zero grind. PvP packs etc.

Quote:

Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch - Implemented June 7th 2005. Only things that have changed have been balancing issues. Both of my battlegroups are 90% Alliance. Depends on the servers more than anything.

I'll just assume you are still a noob at AV. Not having played long enough to have followed all the changes. The changes have been far reaching and extensive, the most recently implemented version: Aterac Valley does Guild Wars, but can't quite get it up. They've done a horrible job on the latest overhaul, thus a new fix is in the pipe, sounding like they'll be heading back to the layered "Onion" formula. I'm actually optimistic about this Old/New direction they'll be taking with AV. I might even re-install WoW for a few weeks. It's a great idea really, the more commanders you kill, the less Buffed the end Boss is. Being that you would not be able to kill the end Boss with all the buffs, kinda like Zul Gurub. But you see Blizzard is just prolonging the pain, as gear and stats will outstrip their attempts at PvP content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makki

Blizzard's next MMO will be a Guild Wars Clone

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Teamwork is far more important than skill, something that can be considered a skill, but as far as WoW is concerned, the majority of players gain their PvP power through grinding honor/arena points for gear. Best skill available really, the only skill necessary in WoW teamwork, is a good healer.

If you got good teamwork but no skill, where will that get you? And if you think teamwork is lacking then I highly recommend that you avert your attention to 5v5 arenas. Can't comment a whole lot on 3v3 though since my team hasn't had a whole lot of trouble and I consider 2v2 to be somewhat of a joke.

Then again, I consider PvP in WoW a joke as much as I consider PvE in GW a joke: They're not the most well developed portions of the game, further proving that it's a completely moot "apples vs. oranges" argument between the.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Only a couple of months? How many days/hours spent farming that honor would you guess?

What honor? I did arenas, not battlegrounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Oh, you also forgot to emphasize that for a few dollars, you have Zero grind. PvP packs etc.

I bolded the important part. While it's cool that it can come at such a convenience, it's also having to pay more for a game that you already purchased, which is a huge reason why people don't like the pay-to-play model and why people prefer Guild Wars' model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I'll just assume you are still a noob at AV. Not having played long enough to have followed all the changes.

I stopped playing it when it was no longer "old-school" AV (due to a bit of spite I'll admit, I miss old-school AV

), but got back into it after I got 4/5ths of my Arena gear.

In terms of it "going Guild Wars," are you comparing it as though it's WoW's varient of the GvG battles with the guild lords?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Blizzard's next MMO will be a Guild Wars Clone

Because Guild Wars has been more successful than StarCraft, Diablo, and WoW, right?

bhavv · Mar 14, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Actually GW2 is going to be a WoW clone. GW1 and its playstyle will die right after that. No one is going to copy a game that fails at PVE.

Dont forget that GW is a free to play game and only has half as many people playing it as wow. If GW had a fee I doubt it would even have 1 million players right now.

Cacheelma · Mar 14, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Actually GW2 is going to be a WoW clone. GW1 and its playstyle will die right after that. No one is going to copy a game that fails at PVE.

Dont forget that GW is a free to play game and only has half as many people playing it as wow. If GW had a fee I doubt it would even have 1 million players right now.

QFT. You gotta be so delusional to think that a company would CLONE a less successful game.

Improve on a concept: possible. But to clone? lol, please.

arcanemacabre · Mar 14, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

You gotta be so delusional to think that a company would CLONE a less successful game.

You gotta be idiots to clone a game, period - successful or not. I don't think Anet are idiots. As you say, improving on concepts yes, but not clone. I think both WoW and GW could improve on each other's concepts, regardless of who is more successful.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Why would Strain and Phineas wish to make GW2 a WoW clone?
They left Blizzard because they wanted to try something different. What they tried actually did well enough to continue their direction.
They're not going to drop everything they believe to create a game running off the gameplay of 8 years ago.
Blizzard may have done a good job with WoW, but people are going to get bored of gameplay like that over time. It only took me a few years before I got sick of it.
Two of my friends who played GW, left to play WoW and they recently stopped playing WoW. Someone has to make something different to get the attention of the players who are at that point.
People who got bored of both GW and WoW aren't going to come back for more of the same.

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Why would Strain and Phineas wish to make GW2 a WoW clone?
They left Blizzard because they wanted to try something different. What they tried actually did well enough to continue their direction.
They're not going to drop everything they believe to create a game running off the gameplay of 8 years ago.
Blizzard may have done a good job with WoW, but people are going to get bored of gameplay like that over time. It only took me a few years before I got sick of it.

This is why I'm soooo looking forward to GW2: It's taking some of what's the best in the RPG genre and putting it's own twist into it. In the end, I know that I won't be paying for two versions of WoW.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Also if Blizzard makes WoW 2 in the future, it's not going to be a WoW clone either! They would be crazy to do that. Companies who make sequels that are just fancy versions of the first have to rely on the franchise name to sell it. Mmorpgs make their money from long time playing, so it's important to keep players interested long enough.
Starcraft 2 can be just a glorified version of Starcraft and it'll do well, but WoW 2 won't have the luxury of only needing to sell the box to make money.

Cacheelma · Mar 14, 2008, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Companies who make sequels that are just fancy versions of the first have to rely on the franchise name to sell it. Mmorpgs make their money from long time playing, so it's important to keep players interested long enough.

What kind of game do you think GW2 would be if it's not a "fancy version of the first"?

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 05:23 AM // 05:23

StarCraft Universe would be win, imo. Hey, they did it for Warcraft!

Also, my crazy "out-of-the-air" prediction is that something will happen in SC2 that'll make it more viable to lead off into an MMO. Whether it'll be something with the Zerg, who knows.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

What kind of game do you think GW2 would be if it's not a "fancy version of the first"?

If GW2 is just a fancy version of the first, it'll only sell copies and not keep people interested. People get bored of gameplay over time. They may buy GW2 because of the franchise name, but once they play it, they'll quit and never bother with the franchise again.
Some people are worried Anet only cares about selling the boxes and not making something new. I worry sometimes about that too.
But if Strain is sticking to his idea of bringing new ideas into online rpgs then the franchise could grow.
Resident Evil for example started to get really stale. I seriously started getting bored of it. But RE4 gave the whole series a facelift and it blew everyone away. The franchise name sold it, but the new game design brought the series back into popularity.

Cacheelma · Mar 14, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

The thing is, I haven't heard of any "new game design" in GW2 other than "High or no level cap", or "persistent area", or "solo-friendly" and many other things, most of which sound seriously similar to stuff in other games, namely WoW and "insert the name of a korean mmo here".

"Anet only cares about selling the boxes"? What does the "We sold 5 million units" advertisement tell you? Isn't that obvious enough?

Bryant Again · Mar 14, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

The thing is, I haven't heard of any "new game design" in GW2 other than "High or no level cap", or "persistent area", or "solo-friendly" and many other things, most of which sound seriously similar to stuff in other games, namely WoW and "insert the name of a korean mmo here".

Now, this is what could very well be the thing that truly makes it seem WoW-like in comparison: It will do little that's innovative or new, but instead borrow good ideas from other games and achieve a quality and design that surpasses them. Now, what it decides to borrow we have yet to see. All I know is that the new "sidekick" system sounds awesome.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

That's why I said I was worried.
But I'm not going to sentence a game based on knowing very little.
I'm only going to wait and see how they do things in GW2. If it's just stuff they've done to death in GW1 and popular stuff ripped from other games, I see the franchise hitting hard times a year after it's release.
We have no idea if they are doing persistant zones or high level caps in a way that's even been done before.
Also I truly have no idea what they meant by emergent skill system. I hope it's different.

Cacheelma · Mar 14, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

All I know is that the new "sidekick" system sounds awesome.

I hope it works better than the ones currently in CoH/CoV though (not that I know how to improve it, or that it should be improved. But to copy it? hmmmm...please don't).

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

The game must be more than a year away if they haven't expanded on what they first said would be in it. Also I remember people saying GW1 game play changed a bit in the last weeks of beta testing.
I would like to take part in the beta. In EQ2 PvP beta, I was not liking a lot of what they did. I made a lot of noise on the beta forums. lol

arcanemacabre · Mar 14, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

The thing is, I haven't heard of any "new game design" in GW2 other than "High or no level cap", or "persistent area", or "solo-friendly" and many other things, most of which sound seriously similar to stuff in other games, namely WoW and "insert the name of a korean mmo here".

Well, they have mentioned something about real-time events that players can become a part of, such as the dragon/bridge example in PC Gamer.

Other than that, if they disclose too much information on new features/gameplay elements, other companies could steal those ideas for their own games, and if they're successful because of those elements, GW2 will have less of a chance since it will appear to have copied, despite being the other way around. So most of the information we're going to get up till beta will probably sound like improved versions of features everyone already knows about, be it from GW, WoW, Everquest, whatever. It's been done, so there's nothing to hide.